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2013 Arctic Cat Snowmobile Drivetrain Updates


(3/29/2012)

Yep, there were some first-year gremlins on 2012 Arctic Cat snowmobiles.

And yes, solutions are coming.

Here's the first of a few posts detailing changes for the 2013 models, this time focussing on the drivetrain updates.

 

2013 Arctic Cat snowmobile reverse fix

Let's start with the Reverse system on the 4-strokes, which was the source of understandable frustration in 2012

The problem: a combination of an imperfect design and some out-of-tolerance components rendered a system that would only partially shift into forward/reverse (especially when the rider would hit the gas prior to full-shift). Then, when a load was given, the partially-engaged splines would sheer and render the system useless for many. Bad deal, for sure.

For 2013, a change to a rack-and-pinion design produces double the force to shift between forward/reverse, delivering a positive engagement.

This new system will be updated on all 2012 models beginning in September.

 

2013 Arctic Cat Snowmobile Clutches

Next up, the equally-frustrating blown belt issues for some 800 owners.

Several factors led to blown belts this past season, including a nut that wasn't properly torqued on the jackshaft gear in the chaincase on some models (causing the shaft to slide away from the case and thus causing significant clutch/belt misalignment), as well as inadequate belt construction.

Arctic Cat snowmobile drive belt improvements

A switch to a harder compound, as well as an improved construction process, has produced a new belt (P/N 0627-084) that is both stronger and runs cooler than the -083 belt.

 

2013 Arctic Cat snowmobile drive cam rollers

A casualty of production material variance in 2012 caused cracking and breaking of the driven clutch rollers.

A switch to a more robust material for 2013 has literally doubled the force required to produce failure. With production tolerance factored in, the new rollers are going live as expected.

 

2013 Arctic Cat snowmobile drive clutch sprinig change

And finally, a new drive clutch spring for all 2013 Arctic Cat F and XF800s reduces engagement rpm from 3200 to 2800. The smoother, less-abrupt engagement improves drivability.

I'll post more information on other changes for 2013 soon.

Thanks for reading.



Comments (81):

Roger Hoyt says:
3/29/2012 7:19:00 PM

Thanks, are they going to address the tcl that is breaking, are they going to address the ice problem on tunnels on 2012 models,broken shafts on 800s,and the fuel pickup problems. thanks ROGER HOYT/ AKA GIDDY-UP
Hal Armstrong says:
3/29/2012 7:49:00 PM

What about the inaccurate fuel guage on the 1100 sleds. The display one minute display empty, then the next instance say it was 1/4 full.

I was in Quebec riding in the middle of the night and the guage was all over the place. One minute it read I had fuel the next minute it was reading empty. I barely made it into a town for gas, The sled was jugging as I pulled up the pumps.

This is a real problem that needs to be addressed.
Greg Hallstrom says:
3/29/2012 9:42:00 PM

While my new XF800 Sno Pro performed flawlessly, it is nice to know about potential problems. Thanks for the info. I'm sure Cat will initiate recalls where necessary to maintain good customer relations.

Hal,

The gauge is accurate. Just not when you are riding. A lot of that has to do with the shape of the tank. It goes way under the seat which allows gas to slosh around once the level is less than half. If you stop, the gas stops moving around and you will get an accurate reading on the gauge. I learned on my machine to ignore the gauge and concentrate on the trip odometer instead.
Kelly Growden says:
3/30/2012 12:34:00 AM

I hope cat has something else up their sleeve to fix the belt issue on the 800's, the 084 belt is not working any better than the 083. This will really cost them sales for 2013, the problem has not been resolved.
hugh says:
3/30/2012 7:00:00 AM

I really wonder who does the clutching at the factory, laptop geeks or real testers? Cat could fix alot of belt issues by doing two simple things. Get the shim stack under the spider done correctly to untuck the weights("abrupt belt engagement") and get off the compression spring secondary clutch bandwagon and engineer a torsional that will engage reverse. Ever since some magazines published articles about TEAM clutches some years back belt heat has been up and top speeds down.
Paul Hein says:
3/30/2012 7:24:00 AM

I hope they have an acceptable fix for the dented tunnel on my beautiful black sled! As for the 800 issues, light weight and crazy power will make for some problems. I'm sure they'll be resolved. Please keep us updated John.
articfreak says:
3/30/2012 7:49:00 AM

Clutch guys at AC They are the real deal no computer geeks. Ride out in the field boy ie Larry Colthum is one.
Karl Hoegemann says:
3/30/2012 8:27:00 AM

Since it's next to impossible to speak directly with anyone who knows anything at Cat I will post here!! I was only able to ride 400 miles this year due too poor snow conditions!! Most everyone on this "Consumer" end is aware of the issues with this new design, as I'm sure the folks at Cat are as well!! Would be nice to here somthing directly from Cat on what the game plan is on addressing these issues!! While I find Billy Bob very entertaining on all of the forums I'd like to here somthing from the horses mouth!!! Seems like the least the horse could do after we stuffed him full of oats! I'd like to add one more thing to the above list of issues your headlight reflector is designed wrong, but you already knew that!!
Greg W says:
3/30/2012 11:24:00 AM

Mr Hallstrom - I totally disagree with you on the fuel guage being accurate. It's not even close, not even when stopped. It is more than a nuisance. Ignore something "flashing" on your guages? Really??

Like many others with a 2012 800, I certainly hope AC makes things right. The belt and the clutching are very basic issues that they need to stand behind. Right now, the only communication anyone has received is that the M8 guys are getting a free 084. What about the rest of us? I paid another $80+ for a spare 083.
Clutching? Engagement at 3200 in 2012? Not on your life. Try 4200.

I'm very happy they are correcting this stuff on 2013's, but NO WHERE have they made any committment to correct these issues on the 2012s(except the 4 stroke reverse). And as a 2012 owner, I'm not very happy right now.
Jason says:
3/30/2012 1:10:00 PM

What about the garbage powder metal gears and Silent link chains you used Cat? What about the garbage Jackshafts that are snapping???
Kevin Hooper says:
3/30/2012 5:36:00 PM

The 2012's may have been the most anticipated release that I ever remember - Cat provided the sled we asked for. Heck, I even cut our vacation a day short to head up to Thief River Falls for the 50th celebration. But... I haven't been too happy with mine. Thankfully, I have a good dealer and AC worked well with them.

Issues I have had with my XF11 have been a bad bypass hose (shot coolant on 1st startup at the dealer); bad seat; reverse grinding; bad tunnel icing on colder days - leading to the ends of the track lugs wearing off; gas gauge reading empty but only taking 5 gallons of fuel to fill; thumbwarmer issues; and primary clutch won't shift out & makes a rattling noise.

Then there's the other annoying stuff...bubbles and badly misaligned decals; bad seat; rubbing wires and hoses; and squeaking front suspension on the lower ball joints to name a few. Backordered parts took out 2 rides this winter too. It's been frustrating, but Cat has always taken good care of their customers in the past and I have no reason to believe they won't here either. They are a very good company and that's why I buy their products.

Jay says:
3/30/2012 7:13:00 PM

Kevin,

My seat is bad too....What did yours do? Mine has holes worn through already in the front near the gas tank fill......sharp edges poking through.

An anyone who says these gas gauges are accurate is sadly mistaken.....My XF1000 NA was tripping the low fuel light at 78-80 miles consistently.....I never put more than 6 gallons in the tank, so its way off...

Greg Hallstrom says:
3/30/2012 8:07:00 PM

I am only speaking from my own experience with an XF800 Sno Pro on the gas gauge issue. Like on my '09 Crossfire, which had a mechanical gauge, you will not get an accurate reading while riding as the gas is sloshing around in the tank. Once you stop, the gauge should settle down to an accurate reading. I learned early on with both machines to watch the trip odometer instead of the gas gauge.

One other possibility though is that you have a similar problem to what my female friend, the Cat Girl, had on her new F-570 a few years ago. On that machine the gauge conked out the very first day she rode it. When we took it to our dealer for a warranty repair, they found the plastic tube which the mechanism sits in had a hole in it. A new one was installed at no cost to her and the gauge has worked fine ever since.
Wayne d says:
3/31/2012 1:05:00 AM

On the fuel gauges we run a 12 m8 and hcr8 and they may as well left the fuel gauges off and just gave a wodden dip stick with notches cut in it. No scene in looking at it as it is no where near accurate.
Kevin Hooper says:
3/31/2012 7:37:00 AM

The fuel gauge issue is well documented by most owners that have spoken to the issue. Mine is equally off while idling in the garage.
Super 8 says:
3/31/2012 10:56:00 AM

Why no fix for the bright indicator light that only 1/2 dims on low on the early builds? This is and was a separate issue from the new switch recall.
Allen Teach says:
3/31/2012 11:19:00 AM

I am one of those happy campers with 1600 trouble free miles on my XF800 but I hope the tunnel icing issue is resolved of the 2012's as this could be a real problem when riding next season in below zero temps that never happened this past year.

I have never had a sled with a truly accurate fuel gauge this has never caused a problem. It would prpbably take an aircraft quality reed switch sender to solve this at big bucks. I just ride the sled hard on trail and deep snow and calculate the mileage for both conditions. I then give myself a 10% safety factor and reset the trip meter for each fill up and use the odometer as a fuel guage. I calculated my safe trail fuel range on my XF 800 at 125 miles.
Greg Hallstrom says:
3/31/2012 5:35:00 PM

While I had no problems at all with my new kitty (XF800 Sno Pro), I did talk to some reps from Cat at the Sneak Peek snowmobile show in Minneapolis about the belt issue that some owners had. First of all, it seems that an automated torque wrench used on the assembly line to tighten the nut on the chaincase end of the jackshaft was catching on a tang washer behind the nut thereby giving a false reading of torque. Later, the nut would loosen and allow the jackshaft to slide to the left which affected the clutch alignment.

Secondly, the XF800's were geared down for boondocking with a theoretical top speed of 92mph. In reality though, some Ricky Racer types were using the machines for high speed lake and trail riding which resulted in the belt riding up and out of the drive clutch and too far down in the driven clutch. For 2013, the XF800's (all except the High Country models) are geared up for a theoretical top speed of 116mph.
Chuck Bernard says:
4/1/2012 12:00:00 AM

The gas gauge is worthless. I've had very few opportunities to ride this year because of the lack of snow. But when I have had a chance to ride, I had to cut the rides short because the gas gauge was flashing and saying that I was low on fuel. I was 20 miles out and low on fuel. I wanted to ride much more. I figure the gauge was off but you can't see into the tanks anymore either.

I would rather have a wooden stick with marks on it than that worthless electronic gauge.
Frank Belanger says:
4/1/2012 12:05:00 AM

Are you sure you want to read this Cat,
I started out the season with being very disapointed with 95 mph top speed on my f 8 sno pro., most of it was that the secondary was way out of balance an i was to afraid of holding the throttle to long with the sled vibrating, it was the secondary out of balance==tried another one and it was alot better, got the new one in and gave back the other one, the one that came in for me was not much better than the first one==sled still vibrates.

next issue, the belt problem when the jack shaft became loose at around 250 miles and hurt my belt, i had to buy a new belt because cat did not even warrenty my belt, next belt lasted only about 500 miles and it was ready to blow= had to buy another belt, by the way i do break the belts in well over 70 miles riding like a pussy and heat cycling the belt every 10 miles during break in, stop and let sit for 20 mins, next belt last a little longer, 1000 miles, had to take that one off it was ready to blow because i new the new tcl was weak from new.
The next belt, oh incase your wondering about if i just throw the belt on and go, you are wrong, i never in my life ever put a new belt on without cleaning the clutches first, there was nothing wrong with my primary and secondary== they were checked also, the next belt only lasted about 800 miles and it had to come off because it was ready to blow, all these miles i was doing was riding like a old man in his 90's because i could not buy anymore belts, i kept pleading on the phone with cat to give me a 084 belt because i know that there was 2500 083 belts that went out that were defective.

I kept checking to see how hot the clutches were getting with a temp gun all season, the pipe right above the joke of a belt guard was sending down over 600 degrees from the bottem of the pipe where the mount is above the clutch air induction port coming from the left side cover drives the hot air right to the belt by way of vacuume caused by the side cover port.

The next thing i was not having any fun with was the cleaning out all the ice burgs every 20 miles all season or i could not drive the sled anymore.

One thing i did from 0 miles was adding my outside idler wheels because i new the no outside idlers wheel thing was not cutting it for having any life on the hyfaxes, i got mine to last all season and they just wore down to the size of the wrong sized inside tri hub diameter= they need to be 7 1/2" not 7.12's i also noticed my bearings in my tri hub are blown out and almost lost my track because o f it== lucky i had the ouside wheels to save me on the that, now my track is another thing from 0 miles, it frayed the left side insainely its frayed so bad it makes me sick after paying all this money for this sled, and having all these problems.

The next thing i seen was the torque control link is cracked now, i know what caused the tcl to crack and i know why i had to buy all these belts, the tcl is trash from new with 0 miles and flexes 1/4" in the middle while under load period.

The sleds look great and ride great but they are ice makers and belt eaters.

I am not happy i had to loose many many riding days because of chasing belts and limping home with a bad belt with no spare.

I am not happy i had to keep the speed under 75 mph all season to get a belt to stay together because of misalignment problem because of the bad designed tcl on these 8's

I am 53 years old and have been an engineer all my life, i know bad designs when i see them.


The next thing is the gas guage== wrong and running out of fuel at 8 gallons is unexceptable, i'm lucky i was riding like a 90 year old and getting good mpg or i would of just been riding around looking for gas all the time after 60 miles. I did how ever get a average of 15 mpg and the best of 18 mpg.

I have been talking to alot of people a arctic cat all season about what was wrong and how to fix these 8's and turbo sleds from the first week in january

I will leave it at that for now, there are many other things i could say.

1 is the new reverse for the 4 strokes will not work right either, but good luck pissing more people off with it tho.

more and more people are just going to walk away from these new sleds and the sales will go down 30% for 2013.

Now i am stuck with a lemon of a sled that no one will touch because of the people being towed back to camp and dealers and word gets out fast.

i had to end my riding season early because of all these problems and no parts and no more money for belts and gas to get to the dealer all the time.

I still had 3 feet of snow on the ground when i had to stop riding, thanks cat.

How is that for having faith in arctic cat with these new sleds.
I traded in a perfect sled for this lemon and i will not forget it

Frank Belanger
catf1000@aol.com


Good luck


Super 8 says:
4/1/2012 9:09:00 AM

In reference to the jack shaft nut being loose causing belt issues. Some riders had this fix done before they were able to ride including me that still had premature belt wear.
Kirk Erickson says:
4/1/2012 9:46:00 AM

I am trying to remember the last latest greatest product I purchased that












Here is something to think about: why did we buy a new sled? I think the simple answer is that the last one was obviously not perfect. My '03 700 Firecat was in its day the latest greatest thing. At the time it was a great improvement over my '01 ZR800. Was it perfect-no. But ultimately it was far better that the ZR and even with the teething problems there was no going back. When I bought my '07 F800 it was latest greatest. Again a great improvement but not perfect. Again no going back to the Firecat. Now a new 2012. Perfect, no. Would I go back? NO.
Who of us who bought a 2012 actually thought our previous sled was perfect? I think we all know the answer.








JimR says:
4/1/2012 11:36:00 AM

I love it Frank: You know the new style reverse will not work when you nor nobody else but Cat themselves has actually seen it. Maybe you should quit you're day job and apply at Cat. You sure seem to think you know everything.
krom says:
4/1/2012 12:02:00 PM

The only thing they changed in the reverse is the piece that moves the shift fork.
As of the dealer show they have no plans to change the top gear, or anything else. The top gear is made from garbage material, with the wrong or no heat treat. If you see on with 500 miles on it, it will look like it has 5,000 miles the drive face of the teeth will be badly worn and pitted.
Also they are doing nothing to address the fine splines that must mesh to engage forward, and to make matters worse, the new mechanism drastically slows down the shift cycle, giving the jackshaft, and sliding gear more time to spin up to a higher speed, before contacting the stationary top sprocket. (with the brake on the driveshaft, there is nothing to keep the jackshaft from spinning up to speed while the mechanism is between forward and reverse)
Frank belanger says:
4/1/2012 12:31:00 PM

hey Jim, look around some of these other webs sites so you can read in how much i really do know, i new when these sleds came out and the first one destroyed the gears, i said it back in november the reverse was not going to work right, i did tell everyone how to fix it, i can't make anyone do anything thing, oh well.

By the way, i have been talking to cat many many hours on the phone since january about many many problems.

To be honest, i do know everything about these little toys.
I don't want to get in a pissing contest here but i have been building sleds for 40 years and building real race cars since i was a kid, i have been working on motorcycles and snowmobiles for 40 years aswel, I am a engineer, tool maker, drag racing engine builder and a machinist for 30 years.

also a promodified/prostock race car chassis tuner set up man, put it this way, i make the freaking cars go strait and launch right.

this is just a tip of what and who i am.

have a good day.
Frank Belanger says:
4/1/2012 9:35:00 PM

on a hole shot from 0 mph to over 100 mph and doing this for atleast 5 times, what are the temps of the 083 verses the 084?

The 084 should of been on the sled to start with, we are not fools here, it was just another way to pork us F800 H.O. sno pro guys buy not manning up with a real belt, these are more of a high perfomance sled than mountains sleds are ,we ride at sea level and use all the hp's, we put a real load on these f's with studs and very hardpacked trails that will flip you over backwards if you don't hold on tight.

I guess you are just trying to make the mountain guys happy and the hell with us guys that bought in to this talk about better belt life with the tcl, ita all BS but i don't want your fixes, my sled is ready to go another 5k miles with out cat getting anymore money from me.

I will use this sled for the next 2 seasons and that will be the end of cat for me, cat got into my wallet on faulty idler wheels from 0 miles because they said no to the bulletin recall on the stock idler wheels and i had to pay for them and those only lasted 1500 miles, then had to buy new ones again, Its BS.
It took all season to get a jackshaft nut warrenty issue where a belt that was hurt because of the nut covered, what the heck am i going to do with a new junk 083 belt now when i'm heading up to canada to try and have some fun with this sled, i lost to much riding time this year and i am not happy in the least.

I want my 084 that we deserve

This is for cat to read if they might bump in on it.

I bought this sled in maine and i might just bring the lemon law on it that maine has for defective atv's, boats, snowmobiles, and such things.

Have a good day
Kevin Hooper says:
4/2/2012 8:13:00 AM

Kirk you make a good point in that it's unrealistic to expect these sleds to be perfect. That's fair, but on the other hand there were a lot of issues and there are some issues that are more serious than with these previous models you mention - the tunnel icing issues bending tunnels and tearing tracks for example.

The prices on these 2012's have far exceeded the rate of inflation over the past 5-7 years -- so our expectations should be higher than ever before. Yet, I look at things like the use of some components (clutches and bearings for example) and it doesn't feel like the quality is keeping up.

The Procross sleds will be a winner and Cat is already addressing some issues on the 2013s, but many 2012 owners are concerned that they'll be left in the cold.
Captain says:
4/3/2012 8:14:00 AM

JimR, If I were you I would stop going after Frank. He has forgotten more about sleds than you will ever know. He is spot on with all these issues and has put countless hours trying to resolve engineering design flaws.
Like he said, if you poke around, you will find a wealth of information.
"spoiled rotten kid" WOW! Pot, meet kettle!! Seriously. You can honestly say that with a straight face? After months of whining about no 600 two stroke, now weeks more of your whining about no bare bones sled to compete with Doo and Poo?
You really need to think a bit about what you are saying BEFORE you do it.
Fact is, there were some nagging issues with these new sleds. Fact is there was MUCH below normal snowfall for the majority of riders. Fact is MUCH fewer miles were put on. So, ask yourself how BIG these problems would be if everyone in the snowbelt had snow like they did in 2010-2011? It would be catastrophic. And I am saying that with all seriousness.
AC better take their time and get this right over the summer.
In all my years of dealing with them I have NO DOUBT they willl and will make it right, but JimR dont come here and act as if there arent issues. Because there are and they have been very frustrating to many.
JimR says:
4/3/2012 9:07:00 AM

I know there are issues but a vast majority had no issues what so ever. My spoiled kid statement stands! Many sleds proven out there with over 3000 miles and no issues. The ones who are having issues are the ones that ride straight line wide open withought a thought on breaking in a sled then expect Cat to just open there wallet to them. BTW, another reason to stay away from 4 strokes. Reverse issues that two strokes do not have.
LazyEyeRacer says:
4/3/2012 9:18:00 AM

Frank has a 2012 F 800. I'm just saying.
Captain says:
4/3/2012 10:10:00 AM

I am not Frank. I wish I knew all that he does, but I dont. He's probably old enough to be my dad. Since Im not even 40, let alone have 40 years engineering experience.

Sorry Frank. LOL

Also, I have NEVER met Frank, he has no idea who I am, just saw many of his lengthy posts elsewhere. He knows what he is talking about. He is also willing to help others, which, you, are not helping anyone.
hugh says:
4/3/2012 12:39:00 PM

Why not take your bickering over to HCS, it would fit better with them and their friends the Admins over there.
Frank Belanger says:
4/3/2012 8:02:00 PM

I'm 53 years old and have been around since cat starting making sleds, i am here to protect other riders from being stopped from what they buy these sleds for, that is riding them, not being towed out of the woods on there first day of riding after traveling 4 to 12 hours to do and have to go rent a old turd.

Don't get me wrong here, i love this sled and have never been turned down on any warrenty item, it might take a month but atleast its takin care of.

I have many friends that ride these sleds and want answers for why there are these problems, i am not one of these people that ride it like i stole it.

I know how to maintain a sled but it is not up to me to have to redesign the sled, but i have to anyway ans don't mind doing so, its all about the people that don't and have to pay for after market parts to make the sleds right.

Did you ever think that we might be cat dealers speaking out here for cat to see and fix these sleds so our customers can put there smiles back on there faces like when they picked the sleds up.

Do you think we just take there money with a smile and knowing that they should not be buying these parts for a brand new sled, that is not how you keep customers, they came over from other brands and will not stick with a problem sled that will drain there bank account, when a man buys a new sled you would think it should be right, its sad to see a old sled pulling a brand new sled out of the woods, i have seen to much of this this year and when i have to tell the customer we can not fix his sleds because of no parts and watch his face drop is very unsettling for us.

I am by far not a spoiled kid in anyway, i have busted my butt for everything i have and wether you believe it or not, i am a engineer and i have spoken to cat and know plenty of people from the plant and in other countries that work for cat, I can't make cat change things and use the designs i have to make the sleds perfect, I had already sent the info to them and if they don't want or use them, its not my fault and can't make anyone do anything.

cat has the info and its up to them with what they do with it.

I know the engineers at cat know there stuff but it is the big wigs that cuts them short because of the cost.

I also know my stuff and have and always will redesign things to get past all the bs going on with these beautiful sleds, they are great sleds with a few more details to be worked out, but also, people should not have to wait til fall for all there updated parts.

Belanger Racing
Frank
spareparts says:
4/3/2012 8:43:00 PM

bean counters can mess up the best of designs!
John Sandberg says:
4/3/2012 11:27:00 PM

Everyone: This site has always hosted civil conversations amongst the people who want to be here. That's the kind of place I wanted, and that's the kind of place we've all kept it. I really appreciate the reasonable tone that's existed here for the past 2.5 years.

I also appreciate the knowledge and experience that you all bring to this place. A lot!

But the comments on this thread devolved into name calling and religion/God with some swearing for seasoning. I won't accept that junk, so please stop it now. Debate/discuss topics, statements and comments, but do not slam people.

I totally understand why people are worked up about some of the problems on the 2012 sleds. It's resulted in a lot of frustration for a lot of people, and nobody is happy about it.

It's not my place to speak for Arctic Cat as a company, but I can tell you that the people I know there take this stuff VERY seriously, and they're working their fannies off to fix the problems.

The measure of a man or a company is not whether they make mistakes, because we/they all do. It's how they confront their mistakes that truly defines them/it. Let's see how this stuff plays out and how Arctic Cat handles it.

In the meantime, let's talk to one another like we're all sitting together in my garage (and my kids are occasionally walking through).
Greg W says:
4/4/2012 7:03:00 AM

This certainly is a hot topic anywhere you go. Those of us who purchased 2012's certainly have a right to be angry. Did we expect perfection? NO. But we certainly didn't expect to go BACKWARDS (Sorry 4 stroke guys, no pun intended) in terms of reliability.

There are very basic issues with these sleds that nearly all owners have (or will) see. JimR, go talk to your dealer - EVERY procross/proclimb sold had at least one recall.

AC could do themselves a favor and directly address these issues with the owners. I haven't heard one single word from AC stating HOW they are going to address MY issues, or even acknowledging I have an issue.

All I hear is rumors and "he said, she said".

I sent a letter directly to AC outlining my problems - All I got was a "thank you and go see your dealer" letter. How is he supposed to fix these issues when they are design problems? How is he supposed to warranty stuff when AC says it's not under warranty?

AC - Publicly ignoring this issue is only making it grow worse by the day. You need to ACT, and act NOW.
Jeremy Flasch (flasch7192) says:
4/4/2012 3:57:00 PM

Greg W has a great point I think people would be less upset if cat would responed with more then the contact year dealer comments, in the end we just want too help figure out whats going on, My sled was down 2 weeks for a blown motor with not even a mile on the sled, my dealer said he was waiting for cat too ok the warrenty, WHAT ?? !!! there should have been no questions asked period.

There is for sure alot of clutch movement with a TCL, why is that ??? Why after 200 miles of rideing did my clutch look like the belt slipped the hole time ????? these are all R&D issues that should have been worked out long ago !!!!!!!!
AJ says:
4/4/2012 9:43:00 PM

I own both a 800 PC and a 1100 turbo PC, the gas gauge is useless on both Greg . Give us a clear tank for us mountain boys would be lighter also.
J. Petersen says:
4/5/2012 8:43:00 AM

I bought a 2012 F1100 SP this year and put on a hair over 3600 miles without one lick of trouble...on the same belt even! It was all trail riding anywhere I could find snow in Mn, Wi and U.P of Mi. I was leary about jumping ship to a four-stroke, but was truly impressed after coming off a 2006 F6! My only complaint was the fuel gauge as it didnt work, and the lack of belts in-stock early on was also a bit unnerving.
shane says:
4/6/2012 2:46:00 PM

I bought a new sled xf800 high country 141 2 1/4 this year and the thumb warmer dont work and have a over heat code ecu 06 flash on my dash and took it to the dealer and they said there was nothing wrong with the sled. also with the rider foward and being a big guy like me and you put on the breaks makes it to light in the back , I was on a stright away standing up and put on the breaks and leaned just a little to the right and the machine went to the left without turning the handle bars and I went to the ground and broke some bones , and the machine seems a little unstable at high speeds other than that the machine has performed well its like being on a rocket and handles the deep snow real well , its a new sled and I need to learn to ride a new way , always set down on hard packed snow and in reverse and at -20 the graphic on the machine break off lol thanks
i speak jive says:
4/6/2012 6:57:00 PM

What did he say?
Greg Hallstrom says:
4/6/2012 7:53:00 PM

AJ,

I am only speaking from my own experience with the fuel gauges on my XF 800 Sno Pro, the Cat Girl's '08 F-570, and the '09 Crossfire 600 that I sold which had a mechanical gauge. All were "right on the money" once we stopped for a few minutes to let the gas settle down in the tank. Filling up at the pump or from jugs at the trailer confirmed that. If you truly have a defective gauge you should be able to get it fixed on warranty.

The only way to keep gas from sloshing around in the tank while riding is to have baffles in it and that would be next to impossible with a blow-molded plastic tank. The new machines with the long low tanks under the seat add to the problem. Therefore, it is best to get used to relying on the trip odometer as I have.
Greg Hallstrom says:
4/6/2012 8:12:00 PM

I agree with John. Give the Cat engineers time to work out some of the first year gremlins. We all took a chance when we bought a newly designed machine the first year it came out; regardless of the brand. While I was one of the lucky ones who experienced no problems at all with my new kitty, it is obvious that some did. Cat has already given us a third year of warranty as a "good faith" measure in addition to asking us to schedule our machines for completion of outstanding service bulletins next fall at no cost to us. It is an outstanding machine otherwise and in time will prove to be a winner. Meanwhile, there are aftermarket companies like Grip N Rip that have come up with some solutions on their own. I'm not sure how those additions would affect the warranty but it shows there are plenty of people out there brainstorming solutions to problems.
Super 8 says:
4/7/2012 10:34:00 AM

Greg, Grip N Rip did not come up with the TCL motor mount mount, they are supplied by a member from Snowest, (Wite Rad).
Greg Hallstrom says:
4/7/2012 5:39:00 PM

Super 8,

Yes, I know. Grip N Rip is just a dealer for the Torque Arm Motor Mount. It is possible they are doing some of the machining though. Regardless, my point was that there are aftermarket companies as well as individuals brainstorming solutions too just like the engineers at Cat. Hopefully by next season all the first year bugs will have been worked out.
Frank Belanger says:
4/8/2012 1:38:00 AM

I'm right with you on that Greg, i know alot of guys will have perfect 2012 sleds for next season because of the other than cat engineers brain storming guys out there.
Remember my name.

Belanger Racing
catf1000s/p
Frank
scott fowler says:
4/8/2012 8:57:00 AM

the problem with common sense is it isn't.
Captain says:
4/9/2012 10:08:00 AM

I have been riding AC since I was 2 and in my experience there isnt a company that cares more about their product or their customers than them. I have had many riding buddies who have spent considerable time hopping from brand to brand on the "hottest thing" but when issues arose, they were left holding the bag and had to find all the solutions on their own.
I know the blood sweat and tears that these guys pour into the products. Obviously they wouldnt throw something out there knowing there were going to be tons and tons of problems, but when things happen, I would choose to have AC supporting me through them than any of the others because it has always worked out in the end for me at least.
Frustrating to those who have problems no doubt, but as been noted AC added warranty to those with new machines and also mentioned fixes coming in the Fall. I have nothing to support this, but I would almost bet they do not stop there, but add more to it like giving out belts, etc. Just a hunch.
AC will make it right, I have 100% confidence they will. It doesnt change what some encountered. In the end a superior product will hit the snow for the rest.
Kevin Hooper says:
4/9/2012 10:45:00 AM

Captain, I think you said it best and I agree 100% with you. I think most 2012 AC owners feel this way too - but the absence of information has led to a lot of this. I hate to say it, but the end of this past winter came early and I'm glad it did. Let's get these things fixed right when September comes and we can all move forward.
Karl Zajes says:
4/20/2012 10:12:00 PM

Although I did not purchase a 2012 Arctic cat, I have snowchecked a 2013 M1100 Turbo to replace my 2007 M1000. I am a new consumer to Cat, having ridden Ski-Doo from 1978 - 2007, when my dealer's franchise was pulled as he would not build a new store in a metro area 35km from his previous location. That aside, here goes:
My 2007 M1000 was a machine that had a lot of promise, but never lived up to the hype. Torque was ok, suspension valving, clutching, motor mounts, diamond drive reliability and performance was much less then expected. I sold it this spring with 1500 miles without a scratch on it, AFTER I basically replaced the entire suspension, both clutches, motor mounts, remapped the fuel system, and removed the reverse to make it work. Paid 16K tax in (canada), and spent another 10K to make it work the way it should have been. I am also a liscenced mechanic, and have been building mountain sleds before they existed, so I'd like to consider myself skilled. I will NEVER buy another first year sled again, and if the M1100T isn't worth the $16K I'm paying for it, it will be the LAST Cat product I will ever own. I hope for the 2012 owners that Cat steps up to the plate and repairs some of these issues, as adding a year's warranty that doesn't repair the problem is completely pointless. Warranty is useless unless claims are addressed and repaired UNDER WARRANTY. In a seasonal industry where snow is hit and miss, you have to be better then the other manufacturers to keep dealerships open to sell your product.
doug says:
9/25/2012 2:16:00 PM

does anyone make a thinner clutch shim so we can get our clutching spot on?
ken says:
10/10/2012 9:15:00 PM

Hey guys I enjoyed reading the comments on all the AC f 1100 issues. I also have a 2012 F1100 non turbo I had the issues of the ECu 5, 15 and 25 and the fuel guage problems. SHOULD I try the new 2013 AC sled or forget it?

help
julius says:
11/26/2012 7:05:00 PM

I have a 2013 proclimb 800 the heads on the 4 bolt holding the secondary clutch together popped off leaving approximatly 3/32" sticking out of the helix. Sled only has 194 miles on it. Anyone else having problems like this or hear of anybody having issues?

thanks
Dale Tiedeman says:
12/13/2012 12:22:00 PM

I have had the reverse update kit done on my '12 XF1100 turbo. Used reverse about 4 times and now it doesnt work at all Push the reverse button and nothing happens exect the wrench shows and and ECU code 25 comes up. Still goes forward just fine. Anyone else have the same issue? Going to dealership for warranty in a few days.
Zebrugrz says:
1/19/2013 11:32:00 PM

I'm a very dissatisfied cat owner.. I'm on my third f8 and I'm am now completely done with ArcticCat after this season.. Terrible terrible... First F8 was great...5000 miles problem free...traded in for new one..First run 51 miles...bang.. PTO side piston seized solid.. back to dealer.. New top end.. Cylinders pistons rings head .. Good to go..117 miles later.. Bang.. PTO side piston seizes again... Take back to dealer.. All fixed up new top end again..150 miles lates.. PTO side piston seized again... Flipped out fought with Cat Canada had that junk replaced with another sled... 1st run out spit a slide and completely bound up secondary clutch and completely came off jackshaft... Lol...2 pipe sensors and now to top it all off left side piston gone hand Warner's don't work and lost crank seal... What pile of junks Cat putting out..I was diehard cat person for yrs...not anymore..... Very very dissatisfied...
Again...crappy service by cat dealers ...
DanL says:
1/28/2013 9:23:00 PM

'13 XF1100 Turbo SP... 1072 mi. and plenty of sno on the ground! Luvin Life... no issues ... boo hooin about buyin belts?? it part of.the sport.. its a toy... it costs money to play boyz! .... whinin about fuel levels??? HelloooO... who doesnt know thier mpg and use odometer??? common... lets go ridin an get off.the soap boxes!
David Giesen says:
2/24/2013 5:44:00 PM

After being die hard arctic cat and having nothing but clutch and belt issues with my 2012 m8 pro climb I found a simple solution to my problems. Went out and purchased a 2013 pro rmk. I am very frustrated with arctic cat after we drove 700 miles to the mountains just to put on 26 miles on and being told by arctic cat sorry about your luck. Arctic cat wasn't willing to pay for nothing on a rental so called my Polaris dealer back home and did a dealer trade out in Wyoming. Still have my proclimb so hopefully find a sucker like me to take it off my hands.
randy says:
3/14/2013 3:34:00 PM

well 2012 800 guys they DID not fix the problems on the 2013 I have a 2013 800 snopro rr I Shredded the 1st belt at 150 miles at 400 miles my bolt on the secondary fell out got a new bolt and put on new belt well 9 miles later secondary exploded I got a new secondary but belt is on me apparently secondary clutches are on backorder now so im hopeing mine holds out for 1 more trip to the U.P but we will see im thinkin I'd be better off getting a new cylinder for my 02 800 I trust it a hell of a lot more I was thinkin you buy new to ride trouble free for a couple years but boy was i wrong this cat is junk
scott s says:
3/21/2013 7:28:00 PM

i had a 2012 arctic cat f800sno pro,worked well,then traded on a 2013 f8 sno pro,faster than 2012 awesome sled 1500 miles no probs,its all in the dealer set up,great on fuel can run 125 miles on a tank of fuel and stil have fuel left.put 78 gram weights in the primary and a yellow white spring in and suck the limiter straps down 2 holes and hang on..
Adam says:
5/16/2013 11:20:00 AM

972 miles on first belt...which is comparable to what i got on my skidoo

2013 1100 turbo...love the power

reverse failed once..got it replaced, thumbwarmer crapped out , and chain case is leaking..

other than that ...great sled so far
jason says:
8/11/2013 5:24:00 PM

I have a 2013 800 RR,

All of the above issues are still present in these sleds. Gas gauge, secondary blowing apart, belts blowing, engine overheating etc.....

(dealer issues)
I took mine to a different dealer after the belt went because the one I purchased it from have nothing but attitude and tells me after I signed my name that they make no cash of these machines and only sell them for winter past time for there salesmen. They are a camping trailer dealer in the summer. the second dealer (after looking up my modal number in the system told me that not one of the factory recalls was done to my machine and are all suppose be done before giving it to the customer. They said they would take care of me and make things right. I noticed that this dealer is primarily a car dealer and noticed allot of machines sitting outside in a fenced compound. I said i did not want mine sitting outside and his response was "what kind of business do you think I'm running here?" I said good because I don't want my machine outside! 4 months goes by without a phone call so I drive the hour out and go straight to the back and sure enough there is my baby sitting outside with about 100 more 2012 and 13's. I had a few questions for them and basically got into a pissing match with the dude and I left there with my machine and only the blown belt issues taken care of. All the other recall issues that they said would get done are not!

(Arctic Cat)
I have not received a supported letter, email, No response what so ever from any one of my direct complaints about the customer service I am not receiving from anyone of my dealers so far and the product they have provided me after 30 years of loyalty. So much for the customer survey we all did not to long ago?

I now have a new sled sitting in my garage that has so many well known issues that I cannot even give it away. I am down to one dealer left and I hope I receive better service from them or I am screwed!

Arctic Cat......I am looking for your support and loyalty to me, I have given you 30 years...It's time for you to return the same and make this better for all of us that are having issues with your so called best of the best!

It sure will be entrusting to see how Yamaha's drive train stands up in your chassis for the 2013 season.

I have purchased a set of vents (at my expense) and will see if I cannot cool down the clutch department better that what you have done. I should not need to cut into my brand new 20 grand machine to be able to ride this very soon upcoming 2014 season with some confidence that the horse I'm riding is not going to need another pull back to safety by an Apex...

REMEMBER! word of mouth is the best advertisement there is and I have nothing good to say about Arctic Cat and there new design and ways of testing there product. It is a huge let down to all us die hard Arctic Cat fanatics that has been poking fun at all the Ski-Doo, Polaris and Yamaha junkies and the machine staying true to anyone that dare challenge our remarks. Talk is cheap but can be very strong and I have made it my duty to worn anyone to stay away from your brand moving forward. I will change when you come to me with a solution to my problems!
Ashley Roney says:
8/15/2013 10:47:00 PM

I must agree fully with the post above as I am having the exact same issues with my 2013 m8 sno pro limited. Had to cut into a 18000 dollar sleds panels to cool off, new belt blew after 150 miles, secondary bolt came loose and had secondary fall off and screw another 084 belt at 200 dollars a pop and the ****ty customer service from 3 different dealerships. I was also one to bash all other makes of sleds because of how I thought cat was and how I supported them. I email cat directly and fill out the stupid customer review of the sled and any issues I have had with no response from cat techs. I have never been more disappointed or more disgusted in a purchase. I have warranty for 3 years and what does that get me??? It looks to me like you won't answer any questions from cat owners cause you can't stand behind your product like other manufacturers. You shoul start to realize that people are not gonna buy your product if you don't support your consumer or have customer service people can count on. From one disgusted consumer I await a response impatiently!!!
thomas says:
9/12/2013 10:45:00 PM

WOW STILL NOTHING ARCTIC CAT WHAT A BUNCH OF ****ING *****ES!!!!
Al says:
11/11/2013 4:22:00 PM

Iam new to this forum, I have a F800 sno pro 2012, I do have the belt issues as well. Put on 2200 miles last season, went through 6 belts all 083, my dealer said the 084 was for "mountains sleds" they say this year there is a recall on the secondary clutch coming in Dec 2013. Also has anyone had problems in reverse in deep snow. Mine WILL NOT backup, the clutch just slips will not turn the track, any thoughts
Viking says:
11/26/2013 12:36:00 PM

Hello

Arctic Cat xf100 turbo.2012.
Anyone know if there is XF1100 turbo has started to burn because of belt breakage?
What is the difference between the fuel tank with the return of petrol on a 2012 model and a 2013 model?
nate says:
1/3/2014 6:26:00 PM

Well I just made the switch from polaris to cat and bought a brand new 2012 proclimb m800 left over and now I am seeing all this and I am pretty worried ahhh have they fixed these problems yet?
Ryan Hajek says:
1/14/2014 12:16:00 PM

Still have major belt issues with my 2013 M1100 turbo with the updated secondary I am not happy!!!
Randy says:
1/26/2014 1:30:00 PM

Hey has anyone had trouble with their 2012 F1100 voltage regulator wiring that goes under exhaust manifold burning or melting
Lance says:
2/9/2014 6:18:00 AM

I have 2012 xf 1100turbo 1600 miles no problems with it at all until last weekend. No belt issues nothin,blew lower radiator hose on trails shut of ASAP. Took to dealer fixed issue ,now reverse is not working and the system is not charging at all.does anyone have any info.... Thanks........
Hal says:
2/9/2014 6:00:00 PM

Hello, I live up in Saskatchewan and have been a loyal Arctic Cat supporter for many years. I had very good luck with Arctic Cat and I had a lot of them from Prowler 440's, ZRT 600, ZRT800, Fire Cat EXT, M6, M7, M1000, TZ1 Turbo Touring and then in 2012 I bought a M800 Snow Pro 162" and a HCR 800. We were not out 1 mile and the HCR started flashing codes. It was brought back into the dealership (KMK Sales) in Humboldt Sask no less than 5 times before they determined the whole wiring harness had to be replaced. Also we went through at least 10 headlight bulbs. In my life I have never changed a headlight bulb on a sled, yet these ones burnt out almost every ride. I am glad the dealer was changing them or I would have called the engineer that designed these sleds to have at it - What a nightmare. Then there are the side panels. Who in their right mind would design a side panel like these. The hinge tabs break, the inside of the sled fills with 20 lbs of snow and like the guy before stated you have an iceberg to deal with at the end of a day ride. The intake vents have wire mesh that falls out. The decals come off with the wind just blowing on them. The single ply tracks require frayed tassels to be burned off almost every ride. The lugs on our new 2013 HCR have ripped off from the base but granted (they covered this track on 2013 HCR under warranty). And now they upgrade the secondary clutches on the 12's and 13's and the sleds are popping more belts now than with the original stock secondary's while we see the Doos and Polaris guys we ride with go all season long without hardly a break. The thumb warmers barely work- when they are working and seem like they only last about 1-2 months and they're shot. The handlebar warmers are barely adequate for cold riding. The boots covering the steering rods fill with so much snow, then freeze and make it nearly impossible to turn. About half way through the day you feel like you've been at Gold's gym working out with Arnold. How about those clutch updates- they make the 2012's pay for the secondary and the 2013's were free. Where is the reasoning in this especially when I was supposed to have 3 year warranty on the 2012? The clutch covers were charged out as well to replace the junk cover that only lasted after one belt blowing up anyway. These covers were deformed and impossible to straiten after grenade belts (083's) blow and again who is paying for their cheap design and cheap parts. Yes us the consumer. To say I have a sour taste in my e-mailing may be an understatement . And when you ask for a belt under warranty the dealer is scared to help as Arctic Cat is pressuring them to say no. I really feel sorry for the dealer as they have done nothing but fix and update these sleds from 2012 forward. Arctic Cat you should be ashamed of what you have put out without testing properly. We are not your prototype or R&D testing grounds. I probably will be making a change next year if anyone will take these units. I feel Arctic Cat should send all owners of 2012 and up sleds a sum of cash for the money spent running these sleds back and forth to the dealerships for the time and fuel burnt when we should have been riding sleds instead of chasing updates and replacing cheap parts you are using. I think changes will be coming for this loyal? Arctic cat owner. YVT Hal There is more but I think I will quit now...
Jeff Spencer says:
2/17/2014 2:01:00 PM

On the cat 800 why is it if there is a recall on clutches you expect the owner to fess up an extra buck to update when in fact this should be a cat charge totally you pay 12,000 for a sled and then be expected to pay for updates and gearing and belts not a very good update thus should be a warranty issue am I right..frustrated!!!!!!!!
Jon Rogers says:
2/23/2014 8:01:00 PM

I just purchased two new SnoPro 1100 turbo RR sleds. Asked dealer if all updates had been fully done and he stated yes aad I would not have any problems. Drove 1st sled 6 feet in reverse and blew chaincase, chain and gears. 2nd sled - blew belts at 4o miles and had to be towed home. Took 2nd sled back to the dealer and they were going to do updates that apparently were never done. They lied. 1st sled has a knock in the engine and 2nd sled blew another belt at 70 miles. Dealer did update #2. Returned both sleds back to dealer. Called the AG of Maine to report unreliability and safety issues with these sleds . Will never buy Arctic Cat again. There are no fixes for these problems. What a loss!!
Jason says:
3/1/2014 11:06:00 AM

I have a 2013 xf 800 crosstour and have had nothing but problems. I have just under 1600 miles and just purchused my 20th belt. 8 of them being the -084 at $230 a pop. I have had both clutches changed, all the updates, my allignment has been checked many times. Iv had knock senors fail, computer failed, wiring harnes was faulty, reverse switch has been replaced twice. Chain broke and cracked the chaincase so that amd the gears and chain were replaced. Just had a fuel pickup changed. My dealer says they cant find anything wrong with the sled as to why i go through so many belts, it must ne the way i ride it. Dont matter if i trail ride or go play in the deep snow i still can guarentee that every day i go for a ride, i will blow atleast one belt. I have owned 6 cat sleds in my life and never once blew a belt. Iv wore them out after 800-1000 miles but never had a belt explode. I have already ordered a 2015 skidoo. Never buying another cat product again.
Tyrell says:
3/1/2014 8:40:00 PM

Jason says:
3/1/2014 11:06:00 AM

I have a 2013 xf 800 crosstour and have had nothing but problems. I have just under 1600 miles and just purchused my 20th belt............


--- If you still own this sled, you are beyond stupid. Not only will that many problems not fit into one snowmachine season, you coincidentally still own this train wreck.
Bill says:
3/8/2014 2:50:00 PM

March 7 2014

Owner of brand new non current 2013 F800 SnoPro.Six weeks of ownership 600miles problem free,checked before every ride.Jack shaft on secondary pulley shears in half 2 hours into ride middle of nowhere,regardless this is my 3rd AC ,after reading all these comments,I question the support AC is going to give on warranty after all this damage,since my season is done ,sled at dealer !!I bought a new hoping to get some reliability.
bob denley says:
3/9/2014 12:15:00 PM

I have been riding since 1966, a 320 Olympic as a first sled. I run a foreign car center for 41 years, have built and raced top fuel dragsters, dirt bikes and sleds. We have built at least 20 race sleds with lots more hp than these problem sleds. I know my way around a wrench to say the least. I really do not know where to start, but I do know that the customer should not be the reliability tester of any product. I am amazed that there is no class action suit going on and I really feel for the dealers, they are and have taken the brunt of this and most of these guys are struggling small business men, this is not fair to them. AC has a major problem here like never before and it will hurt them for a long time. Their marriage with Yamaha may help, but there are so many problems here I really don't see anything short of a miracle solving this issue. They are actually not present at the spring power surge showing of the 2015 sleds. I believe the problem is too big for them to fix financially. Maybe they have to take these sleds back and replace them at factory cost with a new model to fix this. If I was running this company and it could afford a process like this I would do it in a second. Unfortunately it really looks like they are hiding because they cannot afford to fix it and they are hoping it goes away. They are right about something going away and it is market share and customers. Too bad it is a great looking sled.
Dave H says:
3/10/2014 7:55:00 AM

Wow I'm blown away reading this. Should have read before making my first AC purchase of a 2014 XF HC 800. Had the sled out and about 200km in the left bracket on the running board broke. Brought back to dealer and they fixed under warranty. Took sled for another ride a few weeks later. Got in country on a trail (not groomed but it was a trail) and the same bracket broke. Headed back to chalet and on the way the bracket on other side broke. I guess with the strain on the tunnel that started to kink as well. Called dealer on first bracket break of that day around lunch time and called him to inform him of extra damage from travelling the trail back to chalet. Brought the sled to dealer on Monday Morning and was told I would have to contact AC customer service. AC says they won't cover, keeps asking me is that the story I'm sticking to. Had 12 witnesses, proof of timeline on phone calls and photos. Never made it to the mountains. Haven't even been able to take a jump on this piece of garbage. Definitely going to get legal action here. Can't believe the way we've been treated. First time buyer and definitely last time buyer! BRP will get my next purchase!!!!!
kevin mcc says:
3/28/2014 8:12:00 PM

I have 2013 800RR 6 belts in two thousand miles 2014 secondary only lasted 250 miles before broke bolts for the forth time. arctic cat just put the lower gears in and its drivability seems great with maybe better top speed and easier shifting . only got 120 miles with this setup so far o really love this sled and will go to a team secondary if belt continues to get pulled into center breaking bolts off. I have frogskins and new guards on brake and belt shield hope n it holds
kevin mcc says:
4/6/2014 8:39:00 PM

Talk about a disappointment . 800rr just blew a motor . 2400 miles I can only speculate that 6 snapped belts helped failure on clutch side on a motor that has had a great durability record. I hate the thoughts of buying different brand, this mess could finish arctic cats future since they have had four years but have not successfully addressed belt ,clutch issues. Class action lawsuit??????
George Safford says:
4/10/2014 9:23:00 AM

Only issues I have seen is the gas gauge issue and the track cannot be aligned. Other than that I put over 600 miles on mine in month. Love the sled and love the ride. I have never owned a sled that can go straigh up in powder and keep on accelerating. Been riding Cat since 1980 and will not ever change brands, except maybe Yamaha which is pretty much a Cat company at this point.
J. kalenda says:
4/18/2014 2:45:00 PM

New zr 7000 limited 600 miles 4 rides in April No problems repeat no problems. Had 09 xlr 5200 miles No problems Repeat no problems Prior to that 2003 zr 14,000 miles No problems All maintained every year

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